Replacing the MiniTiouner

Digital ATV - The latest generation, cutting edge ATV - Please discuss it all here.
Forum rules
This forum is run by the BATC (British Amateur Television Club), it is service made freely available to all interested parties, please do not abuse this privilege.

Thank you
M0LNG
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:18 pm

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by M0LNG » Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:11 pm

The copyright situation looks promising actually.

SiLabs released reference code for many of their their video chipsets under the Apache 2.0 open source license. The repository for this code was originally located at https://github.com/SiliconLabs/video_si21xx_superset. It has since been taken down from there, perhaps after the Skyworks acquisition, but there are mirrors of it such as this one.

The ROM patches uploaded to some chips at startup are included in this package.

The license for the package as a whole is specified explicitly via both a `LICENSE` file in the repository, and a statement on page 9 of this PDF document:
Silicon Labs Broadcast Video software is now provided under the terms and conditions of the
Apache License, Version 2.0 (the "License");
you may not use this file except in compliance with the License.
You may obtain a copy of the License at
http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
Unless required by applicable law or agreed to in writing, software
distributed under the License is distributed on an "AS IS" BASIS,
WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, either express or implied.
See the License for the specific language governing permissions and
limitations under the License.
It’s available on Github (https://github.com/SiliconLabs/video_si21xx_superset), with no need for an NDA with Silicon Labs.
So there would seem to be no obstacle to shipping a driver that uploads the included ROM patch data.

I have had a quick look at the `hi-dvb.ko` file from the Octagon SF8008 in Ghidra and it appears to be built on top of this same reference code. Most of the functions in it actually refer to the Si2183 - the documentation mentions that several other parts are derived from this design and use the same code.

What isn't available, and probably won't be without NDA, is a full datasheet for the Si2166 with details of all possible register settings etc. However, I suspect that between inspecting the reference code, and its usage on the SF8008, there is enough information available to control all the parameters needed in practice. It may also be possible to find further clues in documentation/code for the Si2183 or other related parts.

PE5PVB
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:51 pm

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by PE5PVB » Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:24 pm

Hi,

I think this is a mirror of your github link: https://github.com/BlackHole-Devel/vide ... ree/master

BTW. A NDA shouldn't be a problem, as long as you don't publish the documents :D

M0LNG
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:18 pm

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by M0LNG » Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:02 pm

Yes, that's the mirror I linked to. Another fork is at https://git.sr.ht/~fitzsim/video_si21xx_superset which has had some fixes and improvements committed.

While there may be members happy to sign an NDA for more info, the manufacturer is under no obligation to offer one, and they may be unlikely to do so for a project with only tiny commercial value. There are also downsides, even if they are willing. It means that only one or a few people have access to the information, and development depends on their availability. And those who have signed the NDA can effectively no longer discuss the components with others at all, even about publicly known details, without risking the manufacturer accusing them of leaking some information.

In my view, for an amateur project, a solution that does not depend on confidential information is always preferable, even if it requires a little detective work and reverse engineering. And for some people the latter is the attraction to the project!

M0LNG
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:18 pm

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by M0LNG » Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:39 pm

Well, having gone this far down this rabbit hole, I might as well propose a complete solution, at least for the purposes of further discussion.

I had a look at available zero-IF receiver ICs that might be used with the Si2166 demodulator. Unfortunately the STV6120 used in the Serit 4334 is really quite unique in being rated down to 250MHz input, let alone in its ability to be pushed out of spec to both 145MHz and 2450MHz. At GSG, we recently experimented with pushing some similar parts beyond their official limits, and didn't get anywhere near as far as that.

So I think the most promising option would be to accept the use of some readily available receiver IC, with its limited tuning range, and combine it with a wideband frontend mixer in order to increase the tuning range of the overall design. This rules out a simple three-chip design (receiver, demodulator and USB interface), but is possible with only one extra chip, by using a part that combines both a wideband mixer and an I2C-controlled frequency synthesizer for the LO.

Here's a rough high-level sketch of what I have in mind, with some part choices that I think might be particularly attractive:

concept.png
concept.png (109.48 KiB) Viewed 621260 times

This takes one extra chip compared to the MiniTiouner architecture, but could provide "DC to daylight" coverage, supporting direct reception of every DATV band from 29Mhz to 5.7GHz, plus higher frequencies via an external LNB.

All these parts are capable of running from a common reference clock in the 20-30MHz range, so a single high-quality TCXO could be used as the basis for the entire receive path, including reference injection to an external LNB if desired.

The ~1GHz tuning range of the MAx2120 allows for a wide choice of LO and IF for a given receive frequency, and therefore a lot of options for IF filter arrangements. I've left filtering and RF amplification out of the diagram due to the range of approaches possible.

Some commentary on the specific parts:

RFFC5072
This is the same frontend mixer we use in HackRF One, and is well-proven in that design all the way from 1MHz to 6GHz. It has full public documentation, and there is open source code for controlling it in the HackRF firmware. Some baluns would be required around this mixer to match its differential input/output ports to single-ended 75 ohm; I have not included these on the diagram, but there should be straightforward solutions possible. The conversion loss of the mixer itself is only around 2dB, which may be low enough to avoid the need for an amp at the RF input in many scenarios.

MAX2120
There are quite a few zero-IF receiver ICs of similar specification that could be used here, and we looked at a number of them for the receive side of the URTI project. The MAX2120 had notably better availability and lower cost than others. There is a full public datasheet for it. Mike Ossmann did some testing of this part on its evaluation board, and his results can be seen here. He was able to push the tuning range to 499 MHz to 2442 MHz; not that there is any need to do so in this design. The simplest plan for the IF range would be to select a single preferred frequency, clear of most likely interference, and include a tight bandpass filter around it.

Si2166D
As per notes earlier in the thread, this demodulator is known from the Octagon SF8008 to work down to at least 100kS/s symbol rates if not lower, and there is open source reference code for it from the manufacturer. The full datasheet is not public, but there are probably sufficient clues between the reference code and the SF8008 implementation to use it successfully.

FT2232
I'm assuming this can be reused from the MiniTiouner design with few changes provided that the MPEG-TS interface is similar. All the above parts are controllable over I2C.

Prototyping
The least certain and highest-risk part of this design is the Si2166D, for which there is only partial public documentation. A relatively easy way to prototype this part of the system, without any RF design work needed, would be to create a board with the Si2166D and FT2232 parts only, and connect this to the analog baseband pins on the P9 header of a HackRF One. This would allow using the RFFC5072 and MAX2837 on the HackRF to stand-in for the mixer and MAX2120 chip on the proposed design.

If there is interest in pursuing something like this approach I'd be happy to help further with it.

PE5PVB
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:51 pm

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by PE5PVB » Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:46 pm

Looks good! Maybe you can add an extra FM demodulator for analog TV?

G8GKQ
Site Admin
Posts: 2928
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:21 pm

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by G8GKQ » Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:48 pm

Hi Martin

Thanks for this fantastic response. I'll look at it in a lot more detail tomorrow, but I'm thinking that this could be the way to go.

At this stage I would like to limit the scope to DATV, as FM ATV is not so common these days.

Dave, G8GKQ

PE5PVB
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:51 pm

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by PE5PVB » Wed Oct 18, 2023 8:09 pm

At this stage I would like to limit the scope to DATV, as FM ATV is not so common these days.
I understand, but an extra IF output for that should be nice and shouldn't be a problem.

g8lce
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:26 am

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by g8lce » Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:02 am

FM TV seems to be around still with ICOMs new radio, but I prefer DATV.
5.6GHz is also an easy way to TX FM due to drone systems.
If it was easy to include FM as well then it could be useful.

Martin G8LCE

PE5PVB
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:51 pm

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by PE5PVB » Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:28 am

Maybe FM is dead in the UK, but for example in the Netherlands it's very much alive and is mostly used for duplex QSO's where there are no audio delay issues.

VK3IE
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:57 am

Re: Replacing the MiniTiouner

Post by VK3IE » Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:36 am

Can agree,
The 905 analogue and many other places in use would be a thought to consider
As good as Digital is
It's all still ATV the easier to get on the punters will follow
Great for outings, no delays, easy
CW can still be popular, why not FM analogue TV

Please consider
Robert
vk3ie

Post Reply

Return to “DATV - Digital ATV”